Cindy Zuelsdorf: Welcome, everybody. Hi, I’m Cindy Zuelsdorf with NAB Show Exhibitors Webinar and Kokoro Marketing. Today, we’re looking at the new return on investment tracking method for exhibitions, ROI tracking. Maybe it’s not brand new, but it’s going to be new for some of you on the call who haven’t implemented ROI, and you’re going to walk away today with a plan on how to track your return on investment at NAB Show and your other trade shows.
I want to welcome our special guests from Brainstorm Multimedia SL. We’re here today with Amaya Gonzalez, events marketing manager.
Amaya Gonzalez: Hello.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Hi, Amaya. How are you doing today?
Amaya Gonzalez: Very good. Very happy to be here with you.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: So glad you’re here. We have Miguel Churruca, marketing, and communications director. Welcome, Miguel. How’s everything?
Miguel Churruca: Hi Cindy, hi everybody. Here we are. Looking forward to this next minutes.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: So good. Alright well, let’s get right into it. Let’s talk about return on investment, especially for the upcoming NAB Show. While maybe, it’s not a brand new method for everybody, it could be new for some of our callers who have never tracked ROI. Could you chat into the chat box right now? Give me zero if you’ve never tracked ROI, and a one if it’s something you’ve maybe tried a little bit, and you can put a two in if you’re like totally pro, an expert.
Now Amaya and Miguel, you were telling me about a sort of before and after scenario at your company. Just tell us a little bit about your company, what you do, and how you got into tracking ROI?
Miguel Churruca: Brainstorm is a 25-year-old company. We’ve been doing 3D graphics in real-time for the last 25 years. We’re specialized in printer sets or metal id and 3D graphics. This last 25 years I’ve seen a significant revolution in the way marketing has been used, especially in our business. From our guesswork to our ROI directed marketing, and in this case, trade shows are part of this mix. We’ve seen how trade shows were like an essential event, and they still are an essential events in the study of most companies, but the way that we approach to such shows changes over time.
I’ve been in different companies, but these last six or eight years I’ve been with Brainstorm. We also made an evolution with incorporation of Amaya as well. We made an evolution of how we approach shows. I don’t think we’re going to talk about any new method essentially, but how we structure things, and for us, it’s quite straightforward because we give a lot of thought about that. Maybe it’s going to be something like a fresh for some of the people that are going somewhere else or doing some other things.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Well that’s true. We have a lot of people chatting in saying either zero, they’ve never done any ROI tracking, or one, they’re done a little bit of it and want to up their game. So I think really everybody who’s chatted in has said that. We don’t have anybody saying they’re pros.
Sharing your methodology with people is really super valuable today.
Now, how did you find yourself, Amaya and Miguel, how did you find yourselves doing 22 trade shows per year and what caused you to want to review that?
Amaya Gonzalez: Yes, that’s what I was gonna say. It’s really a big difference four years ago than now, then today, because four years ago we did 22 trade shows, and it was like a lot of effort, personnel, people traveling there, logistics, and we were almost, we had one person only doing that, preparing that. So we had to decide what are we going to do next year, and we decided to ask yourself why are we doing this? And then
Miguel, you can tell what we decided to do.
Miguel Churruca: Well, essentially as Amaya says, the 20 something shows we did some years ago, was like a big milestone, and we realized that it was not sustainable anymore. It’s a lot of work, a lot of people involved, a lot of resources involved, and that doesn’t make any sense if you’re not getting something back in return.
Traditionally when we were going to shows, I mean years ago and even now, when you go to a show you always ask yourself why. Why should I go to NAB, why should I go to IBC, or to broadcast whatever? Anywhere and maybe it’s one of those shows. The first thing you have to ask yourselves is what is your target audience, what is your public, as in many marketing actions. When we started to look at the shows and amount of things we were doing, we asked ourselves, okay why should we go to NAB, why should we go to IBC? Is that because our customers are going there, is because our image has to be aligned with that show, has to be because we receive new customers. We started with, prepared a number of questions and a number of KPI’s, also Key Performance Indicators, out of these questions. That was the starting point of our internal research before going to the method.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Got it. Now can I just ask everybody on the call, would you just chat in how many trade shows you do per year? Because I know I’ve worked with clients right now who maybe just do a couple a year, and I also work with clients who do 20, 40, 60, you know a crazy amount. Just give us an idea of how many trade shows you’re doing per year there in the chat box.
Then tell us, tell us then what’s changed at Brainstorm? What’s changed in terms of your KPI’s and sort of how you do it now? What’s the exact process in terms of defining KPI’s? You talked about tangible and intangible, I remember we talked about that.
Miguel Churruca: Yeah of course. Of course when you want to measure something you have to have numbers, and you need a certain number next to an indicator to tell you if it’s achieved or not, especially if you want to spend some money and the accountants and the higher direction are asking you why you want spend that much money on shows. You have to demonstrate to them how the part of the money, or even more, is going back to the company in terms of leads or in terms of image or in terms of meetings, whatever.
We start to think, what can we do in a show, especially because of course you’re there and there’s a huge amount of people passing by and can see you. Are these people the good ones? Are we in a good spot? Are we in the right pavilion? Are we in the right hall? Are we preparing the show in advance enough to have those people that are not passersby attending to our booth? How can we impress new people? How can we know these people?
We started to think of numbers and, you mentioned the tangible and intangible, tangible is something that you get. Intangible is something that you maybe, in terms of months or maybe years, you receive, and is not just because of issue, but because a number of things, what we call the meats.
Miguel Churruca: Of course, we want to take that into a manageable level, we started to think of okay, of course we have to have a number of leads but is just the number of leads achieve the KPI or is the quality of the leads we have, the quality of the visitors another KPI that we have to take care of. So of course the number of leads is a good one.
Amaya Gonzalez: Because we do this questionnaire to know what kind of customers or what kind of people has come to our booth twice. First when we finish the show and after when we, six months later. We know the track, we track them.
Miguel Churruca: Yeah so essentially we are feeling it’s not just the amount of people, the number of leads, so for instance just one KPI, it’s how they evolve over time. We have a like say, 500 or 1000 leads from a given show, if after the follow-up we only have like, let’s say 10, 20, then that number reduces a lot. You have to bear in mind how much business you get from those new leads because these are the new people that you don’t know. The people you already know, your customers, your shareholders, whoever, that you already come to, that you can meet there, because you prepared meetings with them, but the people that are new to you, to your company or your business are the important ones when you go to a show and try to meet people.
The number itself is a good indicator, but the amount of business you receive from those people six months later, or one year later is the second indicator that tells you how the show is for you.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Are you actually taking a spreadsheet and putting that down, and writing down, you have a column for the KPI’s and a column for the performance? What does that look like in real life?
Miguel Churruca: Well it can be a spreadsheet, or some people may have a CRM that can get to those structures and spreadsheets or follow-up. A simple Excel sheet will be useful for that. Just have to say, okay this John Doe came to see this product and then we contacted him later on, and he said was interested. There are tons of CRM things that people do in any CRM software or even in a spreadsheet. From the whatever number of leads I have, I got like this number of orders or possible businesses or trends.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Got it.
Miguel Churruca: Like the follow-up gives you the real advantage for this. If you can finish up your work and say, okay we had so many leads okay forever, pass it to the sales people, we’re done, okay next show. I think if we are consistent enough to keep this path we should be able to know and realize what is the outcome of this show, in six months, in three, six, nine, 12 months later after a show. That will give us the real overcome of the show.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Right, right. Not to put you on the spot at all, just maybe Amaya could you give us an example of two or three or four of the actual KPI’s that you guys will really track for this year? I don’t want you reveal your secret inside of your company too much, but maybe just say like these are the things we’re tracking.
Amaya Gonzalez: Actually, I wanted to add something because apart from the thing, that doing the questionnaire and knowing the KPI’s are very important, what’s more important I think even, what’s also important is that you ask the same people, the one that triggers the action to go to an event or not and then just by asking them you make them realize how important it is also to keep tracking on these KPI’s, and they’ve realized if it is important or not to go. I think it is very important, yes.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Ah, so by working as a team with the sales people and saying, hey so we really actually want to go to shows as long as they’re -profitable.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Delivering, do you agree, like you get their buy in, do you agree that these are three KPI’s that make sense to try?
Amaya Gonzalez: Yes, and they keep in mind that those KPI’s are important and so they themselves say, okay only two customers have come to this show, I may not repeat this show or ask marketing to go to this show.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Right, so you get buy in and there’s a benchmark and then everybody agrees in advance it’s not later you’re deciding should I go to this show. You put the framework up front.
Miguel Churruca: Shows are a company issue, they belong the company, not just the marketing team or the sales team. They have to be a team effort to go to the show not just for preparing the show and being there. There is a work at the show, and it’s a after show work as well. Getting all the sales people involved and make them realize and be part of a team is very useful to prepare shows and also for the photo op. As Amaya said if you ask sales guy, okay should we go to the show, they will probably say yes but, I mean it’s a show, it’s a way to meet people, but the question is how important is that show in the whole strategy of the company.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Right.
Miguel Churruca: Do we need to go to a show to have a, let’s say 10, 15 leads from which we have no business at all? So that’s a loss time and effort. If you get people on board and starting realizing and rowing the same line, so we’re all going the same path, it’s much easier to achieve objectives. This is a one, a good example of how bringing different teams together gets to a real point.
Amaya Gonzalez: You’ve been asking how many people do you need for this show? Then they realize, wow I need three people here, and they know three people by four days, wait, that’s a lot.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Right, right, yeah.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: So can I ask, are you using a spreadsheet or CRM and what does that look like for you? Do you get back from the show, and you’re typing that in? Then do you set a meeting for six months out or set aside work time or what’s the sort of workflow for you on actually doing the workaround setting the KPI’s and then tracking it?
Miguel Churruca: We use a mixed approach. We scroll through or use a CRM but for our own records, our own measurement, we want to use a spreadsheet because it’s very easy to have the whole thing in the same place. Although the CRM is essential for the sales, and the follow-up we want to ask the people involved to retrieve information and put it on our own, let’s say method format. If we use that format it’s easier for us to track the whole thing and also to make reports.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: I like it. That makes so much sense. Now some of the things that you talked about were the number of contacts that you get at a show, and the number of maybe new contacts versus the number of touches with people you already know, and the building relationships with people you already know. Do you track that type of thing? Like did I take this relationship from just a little bit interested to good prospect, or that kind of thing?
Miguel Churruca: Yeah we can track that in CRM, so we can see how the lead evolves.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Wow. Nice. So sort of sale pipeline.
Miguel Churruca: If it’s just a contact or interest people to a prospect. Pardon? Oh I thought it was something. No, we can track the whole thing and start filtering in the CRM to see what’s going on. I think the important issue is the, to retrieve leads you have to also very mind, which kind of leads do you want. Some companies will like to take anybody who approaches the stand, some companies will be much more selective. And that means, okay I don’t mind having less leads, but I don’t want to get rid of half of them just in the first contact. That’s another indicator that could be useful for many companies, just to ask yourself who you want to track in terms of visitors. Do you want to track everybody regardless of who he is or who cares of or what’s interest of that person or whatever, or do you want to have a little conversation before converting that person into a possible lead? That’s something that every company has to decide at anytime, and it’s essential for the follow-up as well.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah that’s so smart what you’re saying there because we can have a lot of data but if it’s not informing us or helping us decide what our next steps are it’s just a lot of work to track the data. I like what you’re saying is like, well choose who you wanna track, maybe you don’t need to choose everybody walking by the booth, you might keep that number, but actually for the tracking bit, if I understand it right, you’re looking at people who are a little bit more qualified and you said yeah I wanna track this person, this is worth my time and effort for tracking.
Miguel Churruca: That will depend on the companies goals. If they need to reach a huge number of people or guests spread the word, whatever, it depends on the objectives you’ve made yourself.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yes.
Miguel Churruca: If you want to have more focused people then you have to ask them if they’re interested or if they like, make a little conversation, start engaging with them.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: It’s a really good point. One of the companies I was working with last week in getting ready for the show, I was asking them like what is your top goal? Well their top goal is to be sure everybody thinks they’re everywhere all the time, they just want that buzz. So that’s their tracking. And yet, someone I was working with yesterday they were like, well we just want to book appointments for the show, so my goal in working with them is to get appointments booked. As you said, it depends on the company and what’s the most important thing to you.
I think booking meetings at a show is also a KPI that some people track. Also, booking demos, so setting demos is another KPI that you could track as well.
As we’re going here, if you have questions just go ahead and put them in the chat box. If you’re wondering anything about how this works and if you need any more detail go ahead and chat it on over to us.
What kinds of companies do you think should do ROI tracking Amaya and Miguel? Who’s gonna benefit from that type of activity?
Amaya Gonzalez: Everyone, I mean, everyone should do it, because although it seems that it takes a lot of effort, and a lot of times to start doing it, that is true, more than, not only doing it but implementing it, convincing people that are used to working one way to doing it another way, that they have to go though another path. At the end it makes you save money, save your personal work, I mean the time of your team, and you get better results at the end. The next year you will see them.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Do you feel like your sort of before and after scenario, that you do have that change? What changed for you in terms of your before scenario then implementing ROI and how things look today? Is it different?
Miguel Churruca: Definitely. It’s different because we are now much better use of the resources, we have a much better-focused scenario, so we know where we go, and we know that this show’s going to work for us, in terms of full turn out KPI’s. This doesn’t mean that this is the closest scenario as well. New shows come in, companies evolve, trends evolve, so this will lead us in maybe one, two, three years time to evaluate another show, so we are getting rid of some of the shows we are doing now or evolve in the way we working the shows. I think this is just the way we do it now. It works for us. It’s also subject to evolution over the years.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Nice. Now one of the things that you mentioned to me is that you’ve changed now the number of shows you’re doing. Tell me if you reduced or grew the number of shows and where are you at with leads? Did they grow or shrink in terms of, you know as a result of those changes?
Amaya Gonzalez: Of course the number of leads had been produced, but we have more targeted leads, so it’s better at the end.
Miguel Churruca: The thing is that we standardized the way we collect leads at the shows, so we make sure everybody’s making the most of the effort to collect the leads as we want to. Although the absolute number of leads have been reduced, the average lead per show has been increased.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: A lot of people on this call probably in terms of getting leads at a show, they may just either collect a business card or use the provided lead scanner, scan the card, and they’re done, so when you say you’ve standardized how you collect leads at the show, can you actually tell us a little bit more about that? That sounds interesting.
Miguel Churruca: Yes, we Amaya is gonna be the person to answer that, but we tend to make –
Amaya Gonzalez: Sorry because I was reading a question in the chat, I didn’t… sorry.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: That’s okay. I was just saying that I think it’s so interesting about having a standardized way to collect leads because I think there are some people who maybe just take a business card, scan a card, and they’re out, and so I thought it’d be great to hear about your standard process for collecting leads at all of your shows.
Amaya Gonzalez: Of course. We decided at the beginning, we scan everybody, but we decided to do a preliminary selection of leads, and we only scan the people that were interested in our product, and the people who we demo or make demos.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Okay.
Miguel Churruca: We tend to scan people rather than collect business card unless they don’t want to be scanned for whatever reason, there’s people for everything.
Amaya Gonzalez: Of course and they invest on the lead retrieval, I have to say that it’s worth it because although they are very expensive usually, in the end they pay off.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Now what do you do if they want to take notes about that demo? You scanned the lead, and you have that in the lead retrieval system but maybe you want to take some notes about budget or time frame.
Amaya Gonzalez: You can do it, you can do a survey, the marketing team can do it before the show and so the sales people only have to take some, for example, a purchased timeframe, and they just have to take one month, a long term or he will never buy, something like that, and they just have to take. So it will take just 30 seconds for them to collect the data they are interested in with this pre-done survey.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Got it, so with this pre-done survey, you can set it up in advance to where the sales person just ticks a box in terms of –
Amaya Gonzalez: Of course if you share this survey beforehand with your team of sales because it’s the only way to get the right information they need to keep track afterwards and lead to a lead.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Got it, okay.
Miguel Churruca: I’ve read a couple of interesting questions in the chat, so we may have a couple of minutes to answer them or to try to answer them because –
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Alright, let’s go ahead and talk about how you capture the ROI.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: I’m exhibiting at a trade show to maintain visibility within your industry even though you’re not capturing a lot of quality leads. Do you have any comments about that? Going to a show to get visibility.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: I mean to me, you almost answered it yourself. If you’re KPI, or your goal of going to the show is getting visibility. Yeah, so they’re asking how you guys might suggest tracking that. I think we’re talking about the intangibles and tracking the intangibles.
Miguel Churruca: This is a perfect example of the intangible.
Miguel Churruca: The visibility, how do you measure the visibility? Can you measure that because of the number of people that pass by? You have track all the people that were around your booth. The visibility is not an absolute thing, depends on where you are. If you’re at the end of the hall the visibility will be reduced overtime. No matter where you are, even if it’s the best hallway, if you are so much far away from the main floor of people then you’re done.
Miguel Churruca: What can you do to increase your visibility? Have a huge stand, have an entertainer, do something. If your products interesting enough can you demo it in a public way that attracts people? Are you next to somebody that does sure thing, and you can receive that.
Miguel Churruca: The only way you can measure the visibility is, I mean, what is visibility? The number of people that saw you, so you have to see if enough people were passing next to your stand I guess, next to your booth and then how many of them did stop and talk to you or saw your booth or take a brochure whatever. It’s a number of things that you have to measure to define what visibility is for you as well.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: You know and if this is a case of a big company trying to get visibility then you’d have a stage, and you can have a call to action from the stage, and you can see the crowd.
If we are on the other hand talking about a small company that’s saying, gosh NAB Show or IBC Shows are so expensive that I feel like if I don’t go people will notice and that’s gonna look bad and reflect badly on the company. Then what I would say is, if you’re gonna go ahead and go to the show anyway, make sure that you can set some goals that will actually bring some money into you. One of ’em is, set a goal of the top 10, 50, 100 people, that if you saw them you’d come home, and you’d go, yes that was worth it. And you get on the phone, and you call and book a meeting and so that way you’re gonna have something that makes it worthwhile so you’re not like, oh my gosh I just came to the show to get visibility so nobody thinks we’re too small or something like that.
Go ahead, jump in, set that goal, like these are the top 10 people I want to see, I’m gonna make it happen and do something different and out of the box to try to get those people in and make it different. You can do different stuff and not feel like this is just a throw away, so I have visibility.
Does that make sense? Is that helping? I hope it is.
Miguel Churruca: Again it’s how do you define visibility? If visibility is defined by the amount of people, or the quality of people that you want to have there.
Years ago I’ve seen comments like, we have to be in the show because everybody else is there. Oh, it might be the need for the company to be there because the rest of the companies are not. We’ve seen also companies that stepped away from big shows, NAB, IBC. I remember huge companies, that even so many stepped down having as well, so many companies stepped down and then went back because of the market change, or priorities changing, whatever. Again, it’s an evolution, constant evolution that’s going on.
Visibility, it depends. You have to ask yourself why you’re going somewhere. You want to be seen by a number of people, or you want to be seen by the key people as she mentioned. That’s the question you have to ask yourselves.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah, the person who asked that, feel free to hit me up afterward, I will gladly just chat with you for 10 minutes and help if I can.
So, there was a question about the lead retrieval device. Yes, when you order the lead retrieval device you can set up the questionnaire in advance. We’ll bring Nick on at the end to answer about that.
We have another question about demos, meetings and KPI’s around that. How early is too early to ask people to engage with you? We are working with clients now who are already booking meetings at NAB Show, and it’s working, people are booking. I think it’s fine to be doing it now and certainly in February and March you’re gonna wanna do that.
Now some people wanna book closer to the show, so I recommend having an automated calendar, you can get free ones, you can have some paid ones, but the free ones like Calendly and stuff like that, or some of the paid one’s like Schedule Once or Appointlet can let the person go in and book, and you can have that meeting link on your email and on social media and stuff to go ahead and get people booking now but also right up to the show. That’s what I recommend.
Do you guys want to speak to booking meetings at all?
Miguel Churruca: Very quickly. If you’re booking meetings with prole you know it will depend on the market, the customer, and the way their sales people manage their customer definitely. Some markets are more organized than others, some other people are less scheduled, so they would like to be less organized when going to a show, some prole want to go to a show and have all the meetings arranged, so I think it’s a very variable.
Miguel Churruca: If you’re looking for new people or contacting prole you never know or never met, again it will depend on the market but possibly, I will say that four months ahead of the show is too early for contacting, but that’s my impression.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Let’s come back to why we’re here today and return on investment tracking and Amaya and Miguel we have a lot of people on the call here who are super interested in this and either haven’t done it before or just are starting to do it. If they were just gonna do one thing today as a result of this, what’s that one thing that you would suggest for them to do?
Miguel Churruca: The main question is ask yourselves why you want to go to the show and what do you want to achieve from the show and measure that achievement.
Amaya Gonzalez: Measure, measure.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Measure, measure, alright, I love it. We’re gonna bring on Nick from NAB Show and see if we have questions and Amaya and Miguel and I are gonna stay on and take any other q and a that you may have.
Nick, can I throw it to you for a moment and do you have any comments.
Nick: Sure, hey guys. Cindy thanks again for being our terrific hostess with the mostest, I do always appreciate it. Amaya and Miguel, thank you guys for joining us today, providing some really great information on ROI.
ROI tracking, which is something that really, as you guys have touched on throughout the entire call today, it’s something that you can’t really go to a trade show until you establish those goals and set them and how to track them because without doing that you’re doing yourself, you’re doing your company a disservice. You have to go in with a plan, right. That’s the biggest thing that we talk about when we talk about having a successful show.
Thank you guys for all the great information today.
One thing that I do want to mention as far as, yes you can see it’s been placed in the chat, my team, and our contact information is there, exhibitservices@NAB.org. You can email us with questions, whether it’s mostly logistical, whether it’s your move in, if it’s your booth set up, questions on the new material handling policy, which is gonna be a great, great benefit for so many exhibitors this year.
We’re answering questions left and right every day. I know everyone’s getting into primetime prep mode here, so we are here for you guys.
A couple of things that I just wanted to mention as far as some of the resources that are available for exhibitors, our guest pass program, which is a great, great way to again contact your clients, your potential clients. Invite them to the show with your free guest pass, which is on your exhibitor portal, and I can certainly assist you or my team can certainly assist you on how to obtain that code, if you’re not yet aware on how to do that. You can plug it into your social media, email your clients with it. That’s another great resource that we offer.
This is on top of the material handling program that is new this year. On top of that we’re also offering a show and sell program so now you can actually not just bring your products on the floor like you’ve always done, but you can actually physically go ahead and sell your products on the show floor. When we’re talking about ROI, we’re talking about an instantaneous, tangible way to actually track that ROI, it’s not just, I’m gonna follow-up with my lead, it’s oh I just sold this to this person right here right now, and we have that tangible bottom line to look at you know right there in the moment, which I think is great.
Another thing that I wanted to plug is Cindy Zuelsdorf, she can do it all, it’s not just the webinars, for our first and second timers. Cindy also offers marketing calls, so if you are a first or second-time exhibitor on this call today you can contact Cindy for a, complimentary to you, me and my team pick up the tab, for about a 20, 25-minute consultation with Cindy. Whatever your biggest marketing challenge is you can contact Cindy about it and work through a plan. Whether it’s something where you have an idea that you need more direction on, or it’s something where you need a hey we want to establish a plan, she can certainly help you there.
That’s my long-winded schpeel. I appreciate everybody on the call today. Thank you so much and as I said if there are any questions you can chat me now or you can follow-up with an email later.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Wonderful. Thank you everybody. So glad that you’re here and have a beautiful NAB Show. We’ll see you there. If you have any questions for any of us on the show today our contact information is in the chat, so talk soon.
Nick: Thanks everyone.
Miguel Churruca: Bye.
Amaya Gonzalez: Bye.
Cindy Zuelsdorf: Thank you Amaya. Thank you Miguel.
Miguel Churruca: Thank you.
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