The Importance of Understanding Your Client in Sales and Marketing with Ryan Chapman

I met up (virtually) with my friend Ryan Chapman for a chat on his podcast, How to Fix Your Funnel.

Ryan had such a great perspective on marketing and I always came away from our conversations with new ideas on how to be better. Sometimes it was something really simple, and other times it was a big idea that affected my whole way of thinking.

I miss Ryan! He was such an inspiration and kind person. As a tribute to him and his legacy, I thought I’d share this post. You might our conversation inspires you, too.

(In case you want to listen to the whole conversation, the episode link is: here)

First off, we talked about how “Kokoro,” which means “heart, mind, and spirit” connects to my approach to marketing. Ryan nailed it when he said, “I feel like if you’re doing marketing effectively, especially with marketing automation, which maybe sounds foreign to people, what you’re really trying to do is expose the humanity of the business and just connect to individuals.”

I couldn’t have said it better! Ultimately, sales and marketing is all about connecting to individuals so that you can have a conversation. Once you start talking, you can share your world view — and possibly encourage them to expand theirs to include your company or solution.

A few great takeaways from our chat:

• Marketing is really just sales written down. Think about what you’d say if you just ran into someone on the escalator or if you just picked up the phone. It’s all about connecting.
• When you show that you understand your industry and the challenges facing customers, you bring added credibility and trust to your connections.
• Strong connections can see you through long purchasing cycles. Be a patient and connected marketer, and over time you’ll see results.

This is just a sampling of the topics Ryan and I covered. I find his podcast to be hugely helpful and refreshing. Take a listen and see what you think!


Fix Your Funnel Chat

Transcription of Episode


[00:00:00] Ryan Chapman: Welcome to another interview from our Fix Your Funnel interview series. I’m excited to have Cindy Zuelsdorf. I always am afraid I’m going to say it wrong Cindy.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: You got it.

Ryan Chapman: I got it. Okay, good. And your business name is actually pretty interesting too. I guess there’s a story behind that. It’s Kokoro Marketing, right?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. Kokoro Marketing. K. O. K. O. R. O. Marketing. Kokoro. You know, it might be a word that you’ve heard before because it’s a Japanese word and it gets used for a lot of things because it’s such an awesome word. And so can I tell you why I chose it?

Ryan Chapman: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. So Kokoro means heart, mind, and spirit. Yeah. And so when I figure, when we’re doing sales and we’re doing marketing, we want to understand both our clients, right? And who their customers are. And so whoever we’re working with, we want to know what they care about. The old what’s in it for me, right?

Ryan Chapman:Yeah. I liked that. I liked a lot because, I feel like if you’re doing [00:01:00] marketing effectively, you’re really in, especially with marketing automation, which maybe sounds foreign to people, but you’re really trying to do is expose the humanity of the business and just connect to individuals. ‘Cause ultimately that’s what sales and marketing is all about, is connecting to individuals to have a conversation. Change the way someone sees the world so that they can start including your company in it, right?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Oh, we’re so on the same page with that, Ryan, because I always feel like marketing is really just sales written down. And one of the things when I talk with our team and, and our awesome writer Kitty, we’ll talk about it all the time, is like, okay, let’s read through this and would you say, what you’ve written in this email or in this post or whatever it is to someone if you ran into him on the escalator or if you’re just chatting and picked up the phone because it’s like, like what you said, marketing has to connect people.

Ryan Chapman:It’s funny, a lot of people do go very corporate because they think that because big corporations use certain words, they’re supposed to use [00:02:00] certain words. They don’t realize. The reason big corporations do that is because they’re big, dumb, stupid. They don’t know better.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Well, it’s true. And some of my favorite clients, in fact, really my, the sweet spot for me is working with smaller companies because of what you just said. We can have a conversation and say, Hey, look, let’s make this personal. And in fact, a small company has that unfair advantage that they can be small and people know who they are and you can make their voice come through in all of the marketing. I love that part.

Ryan Chapman: I think that’s why corporations try to create mascots as much as possible because they try to humanize or add some sort of personification of the business. And their attempt to relate to people.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: It’s so true. Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: But that’s…, you’re right. That’s a great benefit that we have as small businesses. We have that ability to relate to people at the end of the day, right. That’s how if you do sales, you’re never doing it where [00:03:00] there’s not a person to person interaction. So I know some people are all on B2B, but B2B is still as P2P person to person at the end of the day.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Even more so, I think even more so because it depends on the business. But the folks we work with, we work with a lot of high tech companies, not exclusively, but most of the folks we work with are in high tech, specifically in the broadcast media vertical and the buying cycles can be super long. I mean, it might be that ABC or NASA takes, you know, a six months or literally two or three years to make their purchase. And so my client who’s selling something to them, needs to have that conversation for a long time and they need to know, like, and trust each other. Yeah. Yeah. That’s super important.

Ryan Chapman: Well, that sounds terrible.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Six month to two year sales cycle.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: It’s normal though, right? Do you think it’s odd?

Ryan Chapman: Well, no. I think when you’re dealing with bigger companies or companies that [00:04:00] have you, okay, maybe more of a budget driven purchase cycle. You’re going to have the, I just, I don’t deal with those businesses. So to me it sounds like a nightmare.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Oh, I, it seems so normal. You know, one of my, one of my favorite folks to work with, they’re based out of New York. They do stuff for studios and we just met up in San Francisco and they were doing an install at CNBC and it’s literally two people in this company. Two people. But, so again, love working with that size of company and we can take their voices and put it into all the marketing, but it is a long sales cycle for that type of client.

Ryan Chapman: I think that makes having marketing and sales working together even more important because you can’t allow things to slip through the cracks when your sales cycle’s that long.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: So true. One of our most popular campaigns right now that we’re doing with clients is we call it the Know, Like, [00:05:00] and Trust Campaign. Ryan, I think it’s right up your alley, man. What we do is just chat with them and go, Hey, so tell me about a recent sale and then we’ll take, we’ll jump on zoom and do maybe a series of two or three or four short videos, like literally 30 seconds, a minute, minute and a half, where they tell the story like, Hey, I was over at this facility last week and I was talking to the chief engineer and they were telling me about this new change that they’re digging into. And so in a video like that, Ryan, what they’ve just done is said who they’re for, what they solve, and really kind of get into that know, like, and trust piece of it. All within the first few seconds.

Ryan Chapman: I liked that content too, because like you said, you’re in a highly technical field, and so being able to demonstrate that you understand the ins and outs of the industry is going to be real critical for them to be able to trust.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Then you know what you’re talking about. [00:06:00] When the time comes to actually saying, okay, now what should we be getting here? Because usually, you know, customers have a list of problems, not necessarily the solutions. At least it’s better if they have a list of problems, then a list of solutions because usually their solutions are bad.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: That’s super funny. It’s so true. And let me just, just tack on to that too. Some of the clients we work with are not high tech too. So just if anybody’s listening to this right now, know that that know like, and trust campaign can work for you. And I want to share that really to everybody listening because that is one of the most popular and most effective campaigns that we’re running right now. And we’re working with another company out of the UK right now and they offer more like PR services, that type of thing. And we’re running the same type of thing with them. Again, a small company.

Ryan Chapman: That’s not, it’s not just exclusive for high tech, but it sure doesn’t lend itself for showing the expertise. So what’s the rest of it? So you get these little short videos. [00:07:00] What do you do?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah, we’re looking for lead scoring in terms of engagement with the content. So maybe if they click on the video in the email, that kind of thing, and then we can see who’s the most engaged. And then we’re just super simple looking for, a call to action on these are either to click to a white paper or blog post that is going to give more helpful information or offer a second call to action of, Hey, book an appointment with us. So we’ll often have two things that we’ll shoot for a small ask and a big ask. The big ask is the biggest thing we want, book an appointment with us or get a demo. And the small ask is, consume a little bit more of our content. And so we’ll, we’ll run those as an Evergreen Campaign for clients.

Ryan Chapman: You’re using their engagement to kind of trigger, Hey, maybe it’s time to have a conversation, or what do you, what do you use it to do?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: We use that engagement to do exactly that. If the score gets to a certain [00:08:00] threshold, then we would alert one of the salespeople just through a simple email or notification an automatic notification going to them saying, Hey, so-and-so’s got a score of, you know, 25 they’re pretty interested. And then, more specifically though, the contact, the prospect could click to book an appointment directly and, or we also say, Hey, reply to this email as well, right?

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. If you find the email is the dominant media in that industry?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Email works very well and the dominant media. Great question. I would have to say it’s, it’s an all around combo of trade shows, phone calls, in person, demos, webinars, a bit of texting, all those things. Combine an email for sure. So definitely multitouch.

Ryan Chapman: Very cool. Yeah, I was just thinking about how you could, you could plus that just slightly by having a conversation starter. Text or email. Yeah. Just depends on, [00:09:00] in some industries, everybody’s reading every email that comes in because they’re super critical and other industries, emails, you know, drop through the cracks. So you can’t just make a blanket statement about email being garbage, even though usually it is. But when I’m, when I’m trying to start that conversation. If you have that automated built in, what’s great about that if the situation allows itself to be the automated thing is then the salesperson doesn’t have to worry about the salesperson dropping the ball, so to speak.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Oh, it’s totally true. It’s so true. And I’m glad you mentioned about the conversation starter. I don’t know if this is exactly what you’re talking about, but we were working with someone last month who did a presentation, at an event, and we set it up to where he was on the stage talking about, you know, a particular, Hey, there’s a live shoot and we’ve got these cameras out here for this live event. And if you want to see how it’s hooked up for this particular TV show, you can text this keyword to this number, and that started some really cool [00:10:00] conversations with those folks. Is, is that what you’re talking about or tell me more about that.

Ryan Chapman: Particularly when I say conversations starter, I’m just thinking of a question that would prompt someone to respond so it can be delivered in, you know, a number of different mediums. It’s best if it matches the medium wherever they start, you know, in some respects. So like when you’re having a texting conversation, you know, I dunno if you went a couple of steps together, like name or emails, that you had some more information associated with that phone number, but then the final step would have like a question of, you know, that would start a conversation. And so it’s really contextual. So there’s, there is kind of, there are some formulas that can help someone who’s like, ah, I don’t know what to say now, which is, yeah. Why did you text the keyword in today? You know, that’s an easy one. But, you could also do, you know, if you’re a little thoughtful, you can create a really great question. That would not be a yes, no question. But that would be open ended and that would be relevant to the topic that you know, that they’re talking about, given [00:11:00] the context of the keyword, and you know, how the keyword was issued as a call to action, et cetera.

But that, yeah. So just that, that the idea of asking a question to start the conversation or making the statements are a little bit harder. I think generally questions are better because questions demand answering, you know, at an unconscious level. So that’s why I liked the question. But yeah, using that conversation starter. It’s fantastic in sales, because ultimately, like you’re saying, sales is just this meeting of two people trying to figure out, well, what is it that you want and how can I give it to you. And what will be their exchange for that. And so just starting that conversation is, can really accelerate even the long sales cycle by getting to the meat of what it is they’re trying to accomplish. ‘Cause I, you know, even with a sales cycle that’s six months to two years, there’s a portion of that that’s driven by the budget, right? And the bureaucracy when you’re dealing with large corporations. But there’s another side of all these [00:12:00] equations, which is the human motivation. And given the proper motivation, we can, we can accelerate almost any sales cycle to the bare minimum of whatever the bureaucracy or the internal process demands. You know what I mean?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Oh, I totally agree with you. And the thing is, is, is the whole sales one-on-one. Or even a little bit, a little bit to your marketing rule number 19, just where we have to, people buy from people they like and we got to think about when we get their info, what we’re going to do next, what we want them to do next, kinda how the sale goes and stuff. So, I feel like that’s gotta be baked into everything we do because we want to stay in touch over that two year period and be of service and be helpful and also know what we’re doing with the info as well.

Ryan Chapman: Well, since you mentioned it, let’s go ahead and state marketing rule number 19 which is before you decide to have a lead capture, know how you’re going to sell.

And that that [00:13:00] little rule, a lot of people don’t think about, you know, I know you do because you’re a professional in this. This is what you do day in and day out is build marketing and sales systems. But a lot of people, you know that maybe are just running on their own, don’t recognize they’ve got to think about how do I actually want to sell? How or how do I need to sell so I could be effective? And what kind of contact points do I need to do that before I decide how I’m going to lead capture what I’m going to ask for? You know, it’s kind of funny because you’d think maybe you start with your call to action first, but I think you really got to start with, well, how are we going to finish this process? And then go to know how do we build a call to action that will justify us asking for the information that we say we need in order to sell properly.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Oh yeah. Can I tell you the, for me, I had a like a aha. The, the discovery I had around that piece. Yeah. Yeah. So I started asking everybody we work with like well, what do you want from this marketing? They [00:14:00] all say the same thing. Like, well, I want, I want people to buy. Or, you know, it’s like, well, okay, yeah, yeah, of course. But the, the aha for me is when I started asking, what do people do right before they buy or what do they need to know in order to buy? So do they need to know about a certain kind of technology?

Do they just need to understand that piece or what are they going to do before they buy. And I started hearing from people, depending on the business, you know. Okay. The thing they do before they buy is they want to try it out. Oh, okay. They want a demo. Okay. So then we know that’s a step along the, the journey and stuff like that.

And so we know that like, that’s what we want to drive people to. And then I might ask them again, well, what do they do before that? Oh, well, they usually look at the brochure. Okay. So now we can keep it simple. We don’t need 10 steps. We can just kind of map that out and go, okay. So [00:15:00] we’re gonna set up a thing to where if we meet somebody, we send them an email or a text offering them a link to that brochure, and if they like that and take us up on it, then we can send them the next thing that you know, would you like a demo? And so we’ve turned some now what seems complicated and nebulous stuff into like a few steps. And those can become simple processes that get used in the business.

Ryan Chapman: I love that because it really is at the end of the day. It’s simple. The most effective sales and marketing processes are simple, and if you, if you’ve got sales going on, that already gives you the prototype for what marketing should be doing, right?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Like, well, what’s your manual process? Well, that’s great. That’s what we actually want to automate. We don’t want to come in with a preconceived notion of well, this is what we’re going to do, and then this is what we’re going to do. We want to kind of listen and hear and go okay, so how are you actually [00:16:00] getting things done right now? Oh, great. Okay, well then let’s keep doing that, but let’s put it in an automated fashion. I love that, that you’ve got that down to a formula that way.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah, it took a while to get there and you know, I learned to ask, people will tell me about a recent sale, because if you say, tell me about your sales process, the answer’s kind of crazy, and maybe they want it to be, or what they think it should be, or what they think I want to hear.

Ryan Chapman: Or it’s a blank stare.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Or it’s a blank stare. So if we go, Oh, tell me about a recent sale, and then I’ll say, okay, tell me about another one. Now the second one’s usually where I get some good info. The first one. For whatever reason, folks will sometimes talk about an outlier or something weird that happens.

Ryan Chapman: Of course, those are the things, our memory holds onto, right?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: I’m like, okay, awesome. Tell me about another one, just like a different one, and then that second or third story is usually the one where you find out, Oh, okay. They download the brochure and then they ask for a demo or to try it. Okay, cool. Now I know what the steps are.

Ryan Chapman: I think that really hits an [00:17:00] important point, which is the importance of developing systems. That’s part of your sales process and also your delivery process. But for anybody listening to this interview be thinking in your own business, you know. What kind of processes do I have in place that allow me to get consistent results? Because before that you probably were getting inconsistent results ’cause your question wasn’t as effective.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Correct.

Ryan Chapman: Once you discovered, Hey, this question actually is highly effective for me to get the answer that they actually need. You were able to replicate that and use that as a, a process that you had documented at least mentally, if not physically. And you know, a lot of businesses have these processes running, but they haven’t documented them, so they can’t inspect them and then question them and then approve them.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Totally true.

Ryan Chapman: Okay. So now I know you, you have a couple of courses that you sell online and we were talking about these beforehand and there’s a couple of them that you felt like have been the most powerful for people because these are just, again, these are [00:18:00] like extractions of what you do with your own clients.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Totally true.

Ryan Chapman: What are the top two strategies that you find are most valuable to the businesses you work with?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. I think the top two strategies are using a white paper guide or checklist. And then the other one is having webinars. Those two strategies, really, their tactics are working so well for people. And let me, can I tell you a story about one of the points?

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, absolutley.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: So cool thing. So I just started the business, started Kokoro Marketing, and was starting to work with a company and they’re in the UK and it’s a few people, and we’re chatting and I start hunting around on their website or their server, and I find this guide that talks all about their technology that has like some really specific techie bits in it and some diagrams. And I’m like, okay. Hey, you guys, what are you doing with this right here? Oh, nothing. That’s something we put together a while ago. [00:19:00] I’m like, okay, well, I kind of knew in, in marketing automation, so I quickly, I built like a really simple thing that just two emails that offer that to their existing customers. And so I tell them, Hey, I’m going to offer this to our existing customers. And, and then I’m going to offer it to people we don’t know using social media. Okay, that sounds good. So I do that, and they immediately get like, several dozen people opt in. You know, I think like right away they get like 50 people who click through or download it from the form.

And I’m like, Hey, this is cool. So then I just took that information and I split it out into, I think it was nine or 10 emails. That’s it, like nine or 10. And I just, because it’s a long, in this case, it was a long paper. There’s a lot of really interesting info and I took the info in there that was written in that third person, tech write-y way and I turned it into like a conversation with you and I. You know, Ryan, you know, if you are looking for this, you know, and turned it like [00:20:00] that into nine or 10 emails and then the call to action is, and if you’re interested in, and then in this case, a demo, click here. And they suddenly start getting all these people where they used to have a couple people asking for demos every month, they jumped up to like 10 and 20 a month right out of the gate.

Ryan Chapman: It’s so simple on its face, but very powerful.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: So that’s really still running today with those guys. That same thing. We’ve tweaked it a little bit over the years, but only to kind of like update the email builder so it’s more responsive on a phone and stuff.

Ryan Chapman: But yeah, I think that makes a really good point though, Cindy, which is that you don’t need 30 million things running. You know, you need to identify those one or two things that really are gonna move the needle for you and then just be consistent about using them.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Cause I think people can get so enamored with the automation that they want to constantly be inventing new ones or whatever. I know when we started, our first business that [00:21:00] used Infusionsoft was, we called Short-Sale Genius. So it was a training company for real estate agents. You know, we just tried to find the one path that got the job done. And then we did refine that path over time, but we didn’t create multiple paths, you know, it was just like, I don’t need any more work than I got, so let me just refine and keep this path working like a fine oiled machine instead of creating 30 different paths. And that created huge results for us. That’s how we were able to go from like. We invested $237 of Trent’s money and we turned that into 1.2 million or 1.3 millions or like a two seven in 12 months. And it was just because we had that one pathway that really worked. You know, that was key to the whole process.

We just kept working on it, you know, throwing more stuff at it, enhancing it, you know, but never creating more past that. I think that’s a mistake a lot of people fall into. Is that been your observation as well? And if they’re given their own to their own [00:22:00] devices, they just want to keep building and building.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: I feel like people get stuck in perfection, and so I’m all about iteration. I’m like, Oh, let’s just give it a go. We can make it better and so yeah, maybe the building and building pieces like. People want to make it better and better, and it, it’s fine. It’s fine. Like the conversation that you have with someone on the phone isn’t perfect. It’s a conversation. It’s, it’s good. Just go with it. Right. And so, yeah. Yeah. That’s my experience. I guess that’s my, my take on it.

Ryan Chapman: There’s the Pareto Principle. The often shorthanded into 80% of your results come from 20% of your efforts. 80, 20 rule. Yeah. I find that to be true in your marketing, you know, just about 20% of the things that you plan out produce 80% of the results and which you’re better off doing, is trying to figure out that 20% through iteration versus trying to [00:23:00] do a million different things. ‘Cause most of it’s not going to work, producing you the results that you’re actually looking for. That’s why, unless I had like, I guess it depends on your sales cycle. If your sales cycle is two years, well you’ve got to go with a two year campaign, right?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. And in some cases, you know, things are changing as you go along. So I find it’s, it’s perfectly great to have a campaign that goes for a short time, and then we might offer a new, guide or checklist or video or webinar on the list.

Ryan Chapman: Even in those cases where, you know, you have a long sales cycle, you’re not going to try and put the client through all the pain of grinning two years of stuff, you’re just like, well, let’s start with something.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Correct.

Ryan Chapman: And then as, as we learn more about the customer and the client, and as you’re interacting with them, we’ll just model that and incorporate it in instead of trying to do the whole thing and finish it.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Oh, correct. So, to your point, what we do is generally kind of set up some [00:24:00] quick wins where we’ll have, immediately offer a checklist, guide, white paper, or do that Know, Like, and Trust campaign that I mentioned earlier. And so we’ll set up a mix of that type of Evergreen Marketing stuff in addition to, trade shows and events and webinars, things that are tied to a clock and kind of mix them up. That works really, really well. I love your 80/20, the Pareto. I’m all about it to where I went crazy and just sat down and was like, okay, what are the main things that are working with our customers and what are people phoning me up about and asking me how to do all the time? And I got it down to seven. Seven things.

Ryan Chapman: So that’s how you came up with your seven modules.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Seven basics. Not to say there isn’t an eighth one or you know, one of them isn’t overused.

Ryan Chapman: Those are the most common things we’re hearing. That defines another great principle, which is build what they’re asking for instead of what you think that they need. You can [00:25:00] go a little crazy and go all into the weeds, but what you did was genius, which was the look and see what are people asking for, and let’s build that first and see how that goes.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: You know, and I had a really cool sampling method, so I have, Oh my gosh, this is so, I was so lucky. And so, just fortunate to have the opportunity to do a lot of consulting. 20 minute consulting sessions with people. So what happened is I’ve been doing a bit of work with an association and they’re looking for ways to make everything better for their members. And so one of the things they hired me to do is do a 20 minute marketing consult with any member. And so they just book on my calendar, which is all automated. Thank God. I get the info that they’ve booked. And then I asked them when they book, what’s the top marketing challenge you want to dig into on our 20 minute call? And you’ll walk away with at least one actionable [00:26:00] item and that you can just put into play right away. And so I’ve automated the whole thing myself. Yes, I’ve probably had 50 plus of those calls in the last few months here. And so…

Ryan Chapman: That can be great. It sounds like a lot of work for someone on the outside, but if it helps you to understand what your market really wants, that’s some of the most valuable information you could get.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Well, and I get to help people, which I kind of just, I just love so much. And so people really are taking away a ton of value. I get hired to do this really cool thing, and I’ve learned how to very, very quickly distill which things will move the needle for that company. And so by the end of the call, you know, they’ll come and say, well, how do I get more people to my trade show booth? Or once the leads come in, what do I do next? Or a thing that comes up all the time too is around social media. Folks will come, nah, get on a call. I had someone today saying, should I be using LinkedIn or Facebook? And is there [00:27:00] a way I can get people who went to my website to see a post or an ad? And of course, as you know, Ryan, the answer is yes.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. I really feel like there’s a, there’s a bunch of people are just barely getting onto the, let’s start using email marketing wagon and it’s interesting because as there’s all these latecomers, you know, we’ll call them latecomers cause we’ve kind of been in this realm for awhile. But as they’re showing up, what they don’t realize is that the whole game has changed, you know, just five years ago or so.

And so while they’re showing up the email there, I think that there’s these new levels of marketing and you know, you’d go on the front of these social media networks that have… You know, and I know they’re going to, they’re starting to be impacted by the changing cookie laws and stuff like that, but I think there’s still going to be pixeling people.

They’re just going to use different ways until the regulators figure it out. You know? Because the [00:28:00] regulators are going to say, well, you can’t do this. They’re not going to tell them what they can, you know they’re doing. They’re okay. We won’t do that, but what’s going to happen? It’s just that that whole ability to track behavior before you even know who a contact is and use that to then focus your advertising on them is tremendous.

I know I, I use that all the time and I look at it as an extension of my overall funnel or flow for marketing. So I’m thinking. Okay. What if I could just take an app and push people to content? I didn’t worry about asking for contact information.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Right.

Ryan Chapman: Well, if you did that in the past, you’d be taking a huge risk, but today you can say, well, that’s okay. I can do that. ‘Cause I can target those folks with another set of ads and then do a direct call to action. And then I’m not coming off as somebody who’s just looking for the contact information. I’m like adding value and then I can come back after with another value add and say, Hey, by the way, can I get you informational and start having the conversation?

[00:29:00] And my experience has been so totally different relationship that you form with the prospects. I know you’re doing a lot of that. Have you seen that creating a different kind of dynamic with your prospects?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: I find that our clients are just happy that we’re able to give more content to their prospects in a different way. And so that’s what I’m seeing right now is it’s offering a multiple kind of alternate touch. And so we’re kind of shooting for that and that’s kinda where I’m seeing it right now. I think. It sounds like you’ve got a whole level of experience that I’m still seeking. So, yeah.

Ryan Chapman: There’s a guy that started introducing me to this concept and then I kind of ran with it, but there was abusing video views because if you use video views for cold audiences on like, you know, Facebook. What’s great is it’s very inexpensive to expose a cold audience to your content. And then if they respond and interact with the content a certain [00:30:00] way, now you can retarget those people. And so you can take a budget, like if someone has a fixed budget, we could take, let’s say we take 50% of it and put it to cold traffic, but take it 100% put a cold traffic direct to a call to action.

It’s going to be really expensive because that direct call to action ad type is way more expensive than the video views to a cold audience. So if you have this huge audience, you did the video views with half of your money, now you, you’re going to be able to separate from the larger, you know, group of people, the smaller subset that’s actually interested.

Now I take my other 50% and I can put a call to action to that 50% with that 50% of my budget. And it’s going to be way more effective because I’m calling out all the interested folks with my, my first video, and then I’m doing a direct call to action with my second one. One, the video’s already established, that rapport that’s shown that Hey, I bring value to, and I’m not [00:31:00] asking for anything, which is totally weird advertising.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Right.

Ryan Chapman: Because of the way these tools work, if you understand how they work, then you go, well, I can do that safely. I’m not risking anything by doing that because I’ll be able to retarget those folks.

And so by doing this and being kind of a patient marketer, you end up creating a real deep connection with folks cause they’re like, wow, this guy just gave me value. Or this gal just gave me value. And they didn’t ask for anything, and then then the second time you come around and you have a little more value in, you ask for something like, well, shoot, this, this person just is trying to help me out.

Yeah. It changes the way that they view you from the very beginning.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. Being of service and providing value out of the gate is, it totally works for me. I mean, that’s, that’s the way we like to roll. So I guess that’s a piece of the retargeting I like because, you know, if someone came to the website and now you send them some info on LinkedIn or Facebook that you’re just helping them [00:32:00] more and you can also, target it or you can, you can be sure, Hey, they went to this particular page, so I’m going to send them a video on that same exact topic.

Ryan Chapman: How you can use the context. I mean, I think that’s one of the more powerful parts of marketing automation context. You always have context in every cause. You don’t just start marking automation randomly. There’s always some triggering event.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And so having that triggering event gives you context, allows you to talk specifically to what they’re interested in. I think a lot of people miss that. You know, they missed that opportunity to tailor the conversation to what they’re actually interacting on.

They want to go generic, and it’s just so much easier when you have that context to have the conversation that’s going on in their head already. And it just makes it that much more powerful. I had another question come up in my mind for you. You mentioned webinars is another place that you’re helping your clients. What are you seeing working for you and your clients with [00:33:00] webinars. How do you go about making it work for them, I should say. That’s another problem that people have.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: That right there is actually the big challenge we find is folks feel like doing a webinar sounds like really hard and, and they might have to put together a, you know, 200 PowerPoint slides and spend, you know, a month getting ready.

And what we actually do is make the process super easy for them. And so the, the method we use is to say, Hey, what would you do if you’re just sitting down and talking with the customer and let’s actually get you and one other person together to do this cause that’s kinda the easiest way to do it.

And we just maybe get together on a rehearsal with those two people, figure out the main application or pinpoint they want to talk about, maybe three key points. And then, as an all marketing, figure out a, what’s the call to action, you know, in the ideal circumstance, what would be like [00:34:00] the viewer, the participant to do next? Lay that out. And then we set up the promo, the automation, the registration, and we even hang out with them on the webinar. You don’t see us, but we’re running the chat and helping people. So that’s the service we do. And then, as I mentioned before…

Ryan Chapman: That’s really, you’re really holding them by the hand, which is great.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. I try to keep it like literally they can spend, you know, 90 to 120 minutes on the whole project, that we will make it so easy for them.

Ryan Chapman: I had a conversation with one of the directors at No BS Marketing or I don’t know what, I think they’re called Magnetic Marketing now.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Katie’s organization.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And we were, as we were discussing, we’re talking about this need to help the client get the outcome that they’re after versus just giving them stuff. You know, I love what you’re doing with your service because I know that we’re not in that business, so we just tell people, you go do this stuff.

And so [00:35:00] often people will get caught up in like, I don’t know how to do this. You know? They’re like, go to a webinar, you or I, we just said, okay, that’s fine. Good. We’ll go do it because we have done it so many times. We’re super familiar with the process, but for some folks, you tell them, go do a webinar.

It’s like you’re saying, they’re like, well, I got 200 slides. Like what am I even going to say? And they would get totally lost. The fact that you help them create that, and then that’s like half of it. The other half is, now I have to do this. I got to present this. That freaks some people out. So for you to be able to go in there and help hold their hand through the whole process, just makes it so easy for them to then get to the result. Man, that’s fantastic.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Well, we took that system. We took that system, Ryan, and made a class out of it so that if somebody doesn’t want to hire a company to help them do it and get it done, and they’re like, I totally want to learn how to do this.

I got this. We put that together. And so [00:36:00] somebody can just take our class and we, I lay out exactly, here’s how we do it for our clients, the before the webinar, the during the webinar, the after the webinar, the whole thing. And so somebody could go through that and I’ll just shoot out the info right here and I’m sure you can put it in the show notes.

So if anybody just wants to get info about it text biz to 1-530-203-5703 which is my phone number, and you’ll get a little bit of info about it. So those are available.

Ryan Chapman: You’ll proably ask them for their name and their email, and then give them the information about those courses.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: I do. I did. I, we’ve got tons of free blog post info on our, on our website as well, which is that lays it out as well. Like you could probably glean a ton from that, [00:37:00] but the course really is super helpful.

Ryan Chapman: You know, there’s so much education from so many experienced people like yourself that’s available for anyone that wants to really learn. You know, so getting a course like this from Cindy is just fantastic because you can shortcut getting to that result because you have someone who’s got a bunch of experience doing this for a bunch of their clients and they’ve just refined it from that experience versus just saying, Hey, I want to create a course. ‘Cause I know you didn’t come out of the gates saying you know, I’m going to create a course. How do I go about doing that? You are helping clients, helping clients, helping clients. Then you have a few people saying, Hey, I’m not quite ready to hire you. How can I do this thing?

And you said, well look, I’ll just do a course to help them do that. I love it when courses are created from that perspective because they’re always going to be more effective at helping you get to the result than when we create a course to sell versus having the course be a natural flow of helping [00:38:00] people and know that’s the way that has gone the other direction.

But I just think your course is more refined when it comes to I’ve done this a million times. Let me show you how I do it. I just felt like when, when the course is created in that way, it’s just so much mor e effective for the learner and the, the fact that you can get that kind of education at the price that, that these courses come at is just fantastic. So thank you for putting together those courses. I know it’s not easy to put together a course either.

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah, but I liked doing it cause I felt like if I was doing this course with anybody who had asked me. I would sit down with them, tell them stop, and I’m like, I gotta formalize this so that I can benefit more people. And so, yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Well, I thanks so much. This has been a great conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it. I, I know that those who are listening will have enjoyed it. Appreciate it again. Oh, why don’t you say that keyword and phone number one more time for folks that are interested. But what was that keyword and phone number?

Cindy Zuelsdorf: Yeah, [00:39:00] so the keyword is biz, and just text biz to our phone number: +1 530-203-5703.

Ryan Chapman: Cool.

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